Hon. Alice Wong, P.C.

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to have the opportunity to speak on the subject of Bill C-52, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (sentencing for fraud). The bill contains a number–

Some hon. members: Oh, oh!

I would ask the hon. members who want to pursue the debate to go to the other side and leave the House.

Madam Speaker, the bill contains a number of provisions that are designed to ensure that people who devise serious fraud offences receive tougher sentences. The objective of the bill is clear and simple. It would amend the Criminal Code to improve the justice system’s response to the sort of large scale fraud we have all been hearing so much about lately.

New Canadians are among those who are vulnerable to fraud. They choose to come to Canada because they trust our justice system. They believe that those who commit crimes will be sentenced and put behind bars. However, when they unfortunately become victims of fraudsters they are appalled to discover that these criminals can easily walk away without any serious consequences and start committing those same crimes again. The victims cannot get their hard-earned money back and there is no protection for them.

Bill C-52 would send a message to those who think they can outsmart Canadians and dupe them into handing over their hard-earned savings. On the contrary, the bill would make clear that fraud is a serious crime for which there must be serious consequences.

It is also designed to improve the responsiveness of the justice system for victims of fraud. These proposed measures would send a strong message to the victims of fraud that the crimes committed against them are serious and the harms they suffer would be taken into account and addressed to the greatest degree possible.

Overall, the measures in the bill would do much to increase Canadians’ confidence in the justice system.

I would like to speak for a while about the restitution element of the bill. Restitution is defined as the return or restoration of some specific thing to its rightful owner. It is distinct from compensation which in the Canadian legal system is a scheme of payments managed and made by provincial or territorial governments to assist victims of crime. Restitution is the payment by the offender of an amount established by the court. The Criminal Code currently provides for restitution for criminal offences including: damages for the loss or destruction of property, bodily or psychological harm, bodily harm or threat to a spouse or child.

An order for restitution is made during the sentencing hearing of a convicted offender. It is part of the overall sentence provided to an offender as a stand-alone measure, or as part of a probation order or a conditional sentence.

Restitution orders may be particularly appropriate in the case of fraud offences. In several recent high profile cases we hear from media accounts of thousands of dollars taken by offenders. These shocking cases of duplicity have deprived many innocent Canadians of hard-earned savings and in truly awful cases of retirement funds. It will be a decision in each trial as to whether restitution will be appropriate.

Our proposals provide that in the case of fraud the sentencing judge must consider an order of restitution as part of the overall sentence for the offender. The court shall inquire of the Crown if reasonable steps have been taken to provide victims with the opportunity to indicate whether they are seeking restitution. This step will ensure that sentencing cannot happen without victims having had the opportunity to speak to the Crown and establish their losses.

The courts have found that it is not possible to make an order when the amount is not readily ascertainable or when it is difficult to apportion the amount among several victims. To further assist victims our proposals include an optional form to assist victims in setting out their losses. The form identifies the victims, their losses and clarifies that the victims need to provide receipts, bills or estimates in order to assist the court in making the restitution order. In all cases these losses must be readily ascertainable.

Put together, these proposals will increase the likelihood of orders of restitution being made. It is our hope that these proposals will increase the responsiveness of the legal system to victims of fraud.

I would note that the Federal Ombudsman for Victims of Crime recommended improvements to the restitution scheme in one of his first recommendations to the Minister of Justice. These proposals, while not as exhaustive as the ombudsman urged are steps along the road of improving the experience of victims in the justice system.

This morning a member opposite asked what the government is doing to prevent offenders from committing further crimes. Canadians are deeply troubled by the possibility that convicted offenders will be able to resume their activities and defraud yet other Canadians.

To address concerns about the potential for repeated behaviour, the bill includes a new sentencing measure which allows the sentencing court to order that a person convicted of fraud should be prohibited from having employment or engaging in volunteer activities that involve having authority over other people’s money, real estate or other valuable securities. The court could prohibit the offender from engaging in such conduct for any length of time it considers appropriate, including any period during which the offender is serving a prison sentence. Breach of the prohibition order would be a separate offence.

By preventing the offender from having the opportunity to commit another fraud, the bill would help to minimize the further victimization of Canadians.

There are several prohibition orders already in the Criminal Code, such as the one which can be imposed on someone convicted of sexual offences against children, prohibiting them, among other things, from working in schools or other places where they would be in a position of trust or authority over young people.

I am confident the measures in this bill will help send a strong message to the fraudsters out there that their time is up. I am also pleased that the bill can act as a springboard for discussion and raising awareness about fraud more generally.

I hope all hon. members will support the bill and help to ensure it is passed into law as quickly as possible.

Madam Speaker, the hon. member so eloquently talked about what we have to do to protect our citizens or people in general who get defrauded. She talked about restitution and all that in the bill. Yesterday we were debating another crime bill and how we get the judiciary to enforce it. We talked about mandatory sentencing.

I want to ask the member simply this. We have heard the story over again. We could sit here as legislators and draw up the best legislation and so on. What is in this piece of legislation that will enforce the law, for example, that will guide the judiciary to put penalties to bring these people to justice and to get justice for the victims? What provisions are in this piece of legislation which will do that to help these people?

Madam Speaker, I have said quite clearly that the bill does provide the judicial system and the judge, the court, with the ability to do so, because when they do the sentencing, they have to look at that possibility and also provide the victim with the possibility to apply for restitution.

Then we also facilitate those victims. Very often we only protect the criminals. We always forget the victims. In this bill we protect the victims because their money was taken. They were cheated out of their money and had to suffer, without any means of getting their money back. This bill handles that exactly.

Madam Speaker, we have spoken at length today—and some colleagues did so before me—about criminality in the United States as an example for what we should do here. We know that in the United States, much harsher sentences are given to many more people. Their prisons are full and yet their crime rate is at its highest.

I have always thought to myself that often in the United States much harsher sentences are given for fraud and money matters than for attacks against individuals. For example, Al Capone was locked up, not for the murders he committed, but for the taxes he failed to pay. All that because Eliot Ness’s team that was investigating him, there were some very good accountants. It is a good example of what we want or need here and that is for police services to be specialized today with accountants to properly pursue people who commit fraud.

I think my colleague should acknowledge, in light of the U.S. system, that there is no real correlation between being tough on crime and reducing the crime rate. That is what I would like her to address.

Madam Speaker, we have a very unique situation here where for too long we have been protecting criminals.

When we talk about prisons, in other words, we could just look at the costs without realizing that we have to look at the victims. There are the social costs to the victims. They have lost their hard-earned money, especially those who have lost their pension income. Their lives depend on that.

We can never really belittle the seriousness of those crimes and compare them to those who attack people physically. I think there are other means of handling those other issues which are in other areas. The Conservative Party is the only party which works hard to bring forth tough measures to fight all crimes. Unfortunately, we do not get all the support from the opposition.

I am hoping that this time, from now on, members opposite will really honour Canadians by acknowledging that this is a special situation where we are doing things in our own Canadian way.

Madam Speaker, I want to respond to a couple of things the parliamentary secretary said. It is one thing to go after criminals and those who have taken advantage of people, and of course people want to see that happen, but the problem we are having is the approach the government is taking.

White collar crime is not new to the NDP. We have been after this since the arc. We have to take a look at propositions because the government does not look at the regulatory options

If we are to go after the perpetrators after the crime is done, the money is gone. They have stuffed it away somewhere. We have seen this time and time again. We have to go after regulations. We have to make sure we follow the money when it comes to getting serious about it.

The hon. member is talking about pensions. There were 4,000 on the lawn of Parliament Hill yesterday and the government said, “Sorry, too bad, so sad”. What is the government doing about those people? What will it do seriously about that because there is a deficit in fairness for them.

We could go on talking and saying we will crack down on white collar crime, which is great, but what will you do to get to the root of it, to get to the people who have basically taken the money that people have worked for their whole lives and stuffed it somewhere else? You will not get that money after these guys have been caught. You have to get it before. What is your government doing about that?

I am sure that the hon. member is not talking about my government, but I will ask the hon. parliamentary secretary to respond.

Madam Speaker, I find it very disturbing for the member opposite to compare the private pension to fraud. Is he suggesting that it is the company’s desire to cheat its employees right from the beginning? I find that very disturbing.

However, let us get back to the bill. The bill provides the court with the authority to provide restitution, to restore the money that these people have lost. This can be done. They can be given the means to chase their money. The judges could freeze some of the properties or money of the people that have allegedly been charged.

There are similar situations when people are prohibited from leaving the country because of crime. I am sure that these elements could be possible if the House decides that other measures are needed. I am sure that those could be done. It does not stop us from passing the bill. Without these tools, the judges simply cannot do this.

There is one minute left. I will ask the member for Eglinton—Lawrence to ask a very brief question.

Madam Speaker, I guess everybody would be in agreement that, when a crime is committed and proven, those who perpetrate the crime should suffer the appropriate indignities and commit to the appropriate restitution in order to mitigate some, if not all, of the damage that they have committed.

However, the most important issue in terms of fighting crime, because I think that is what the House intends by this kind of legislation, is to put in place the mechanisms in order to prevent such things from happening. In other words, what are the deterrents that are put in place? What are the investigative authorities? How many police are in place? How many Crown attorneys and other judges are put in place so that there can be an appropriate investigation and a quick determination of justice?

Where is that in this bill?

I would like to give the parliamentary secretary 30 seconds to respond to that.

Madam Speaker, I think that the best response right now is to pass the bill first and then look at the mechanism. It is wrong to put the cart before the horse. The horse has to come first. This is exactly what we are asking. Pass the bill and then let us work on it together.